Fuel-Cell Cars

[PolicySpy]

There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

Now the fuel-cell car fuels with hydrogen, takes oxygen out of the
air, produces electricity, runs an electric motor, and sends water out
the tailpipe. And the advantage of the fuel-cell vehicle over the plug-
in electric-vehicle is that the fuel-cell car has easier fueling,
lighter vehicle weight, a lower cost of battery replacement, and a
longer travel range.

There are a couple of things to know about the fuel-cell car. The
first is that there are a limited number of hydrogen fueling stations.
I see them, among other places, in southern California, in NYC, and in
Orlando. The second thing to know is that the fuel-cell car has a 5000
psi tank for the compressed hydrogen. And so the hydrogen tank has to
be very strong and is probably made out of carbon fiber with an outer
protective steel shell.

But the strength of the hydrogen tank leads to a structural idea. Use
two hydrogen tanks, one in the front and one in the back. Then have
the tanks as lateral stressed members of the vehicle frame to produce
vehicle strength without added weight.

Of course physicists are working on balls of carbon that store
hydrogen without it being compressed so the day might come when very
strong hydrogen tanks are not needed.

Now I included this post to a civil engineering newsgroup because
civil engineers sometimes work in aircraft structure positions and
certainly can work with bridge structures.

[hls]

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

The time is nowhere near ripe for this.

[Tegger]

Post by hls

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

The time is nowhere near ripe for this.

Sure it is.

Just corral all those illegal Mexicans in Arizona, then give them all
teeny tiny knives. Set them to work cutting the H's off the O's on water
molecules, and stuffing the H's into gas containers. If they put the lids
back really quickly, the H's will stay inside. Now we easily have enough
fuel for our Honda Clarity.

Plus, if we let the Mexicans keep all the leftover O's for themselves, they
can become entrepreneurs, setting up oxygen bars for San Francisco
metrosexuals.

[chuckcar]

Post by Tegger

Post by hls
...

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

The time is nowhere near ripe for this.

Sure it is.
Just corral all those illegal Mexicans in Arizona, then give them all
teeny tiny knives. Set them to work cutting the H's off the O's on
water molecules, and stuffing the H's into gas containers. If they put
the lids back really quickly, the H's will stay inside. Now we easily
have enough fuel for our Honda Clarity.
Plus, if we let the Mexicans keep all the leftover O's for themselves,
they can become entrepreneurs, setting up oxygen bars for San
Francisco metrosexuals.

ROFL, Thanks.

[Don Stauffer]

Post by hls

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

The time is nowhere near ripe for this.

The thing that gets me is that it is possible to run hydrogen in a
standard IC engine. The conversion is only a bit more complicated than
converting for natural gas or propane. One gets the low pollution
benefits (as long as care is taken to avoid nitrous oxides, usually with
heavy EGR).

One doesn't need to wait for fuel cells.

Big problem, of course, is that free hydrogen is very scarce on Earth.
By free I don't mean price, I mean almost all hydrogen is chemically
combined with other substances, and it takes a lot of energy to reduce it.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by hls

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

The time is nowhere near ripe for this.

The thing that gets me is that it is possible to run hydrogen in a
standard IC engine. The conversion is only a bit more complicated than
converting for natural gas or propane. One gets the low pollution
benefits (as long as care is taken to avoid nitrous oxides, usually with
heavy EGR).

You can do this, and you can do this on your existing '72 Ford with only
minimal modifications and a fancy new carb. The problem is that you run
into the same inefficiency issues that you always run into with internal
combustion engines on cars: you need a huge engine for high peak power,
even though most of the time you're running it the throttle isn't anywhere
near all the way open. The fuel-cell/electric motor combination is less
efficient at full throttle but way more efficient at cruise.

Post by Don Stauffer
One doesn't need to wait for fuel cells.

That either... hydrogen fuel cells were swanky new high technology when
NASA used them on Gemini in the early 1960s, but these days they are
pretty much into proven technology. The problem is all with creation and
storage of hydrogen in the first place.

Post by Don Stauffer
Big problem, of course, is that free hydrogen is very scarce on Earth.
By free I don't mean price, I mean almost all hydrogen is chemically
combined with other substances, and it takes a lot of energy to reduce it.

Well, it takes almost exactly the same amount of energy that you get back
when you burn it. So you can think of electrolysis of hydrogen, hydrogen
storage and transport, and the fuel cell as being a sort of way to store
and transport electricity from place to place in a convenient and portable
form. It's not a power source, it's a power storage and transport medium,
and it could turn out to be a pretty good one.
--scott

[hls]

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by hls

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

The time is nowhere near ripe for this.

The thing that gets me is that it is possible to run hydrogen in a
standard IC engine. The conversion is only a bit more complicated than
converting for natural gas or propane. One gets the low pollution
benefits (as long as care is taken to avoid nitrous oxides, usually with
heavy EGR).
One doesn't need to wait for fuel cells.
Big problem, of course, is that free hydrogen is very scarce on Earth. By
free I don't mean price, I mean almost all hydrogen is chemically combined
with other substances, and it takes a lot of energy to reduce it.

They were running a hydrogen fueled passenger bus in an airport in
Germany (and may still be). It was an experimental project but seemed
to work fine.

We are not ready for hydrogen for the exact reasons posted in this
thread...storage and availability.

Statoil has committed to a project to have the first Hydrogen Highway
in the world between Stavanger and Oslo. They could, and probably
will, do it.

Statoil has also commissioned a GTL plant, floated into site, which will
convert natural gas to liquid hydrocarbons. There is another such
plant (Pearl) in Qatar built upon Shell technology. We could do the
same here. If you count the natural gas reserves, converted into liquid
fuel, we would have about twice as much liquid hydrocarbons as the
middle east, according to T. Boone.

These hydrocarbons range from naphthas through kerosene and to
base oils. And through the wonders of refining, you could make a lot
of fuel from those heavy ends.

[Steve W.]

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

Honda believes it could start mass producing vehicles based on the FCX
Clarity by the year 2018

Post by PolicySpy
Now the fuel-cell car fuels with hydrogen, takes oxygen out of the
air, produces electricity, runs an electric motor, and sends water out
the tailpipe. And the advantage of the fuel-cell vehicle over the plug-
in electric-vehicle is that the fuel-cell car has easier fueling,
lighter vehicle weight, a lower cost of battery replacement, and a
longer travel range.

Yeah all of 240 miles MAX. per fill-up.

Post by PolicySpy
There are a couple of things to know about the fuel-cell car. The
first is that there are a limited number of hydrogen fueling stations.
I see them, among other places, in southern California, in NYC, and in
Orlando. The second thing to know is that the fuel-cell car has a 5000
psi tank for the compressed hydrogen. And so the hydrogen tank has to
be very strong and is probably made out of carbon fiber with an outer
protective steel shell.

According to http://www.hondaclarity.org/fuelingstations.html
There are a total of 8 places that are able to fuel the car.
5 in S Cal., 1 in Phoenix, 1 in Chicago and one in Maryland.
Guess you may want to stay close to home!

Post by PolicySpy
But the strength of the hydrogen tank leads to a structural idea. Use
two hydrogen tanks, one in the front and one in the back. Then have
the tanks as lateral stressed members of the vehicle frame to produce
vehicle strength without added weight.

Not a good idea to have a high pressure gas storage cylinder doubling as
a stressed member of the vehicle.

Post by PolicySpy
Of course physicists are working on balls of carbon that store
hydrogen without it being compressed so the day might come when very
strong hydrogen tanks are not needed.
Now I included this post to a civil engineering newsgroup because
civil engineers sometimes work in aircraft structure positions and
certainly can work with bridge structures.

[jim beam]

Post by Steve W.

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.

Honda believes it could start mass producing vehicles based on the FCX
Clarity by the year 2018

Post by PolicySpy
Now the fuel-cell car fuels with hydrogen, takes oxygen out of the
air, produces electricity, runs an electric motor, and sends water out
the tailpipe. And the advantage of the fuel-cell vehicle over the plug-
in electric-vehicle is that the fuel-cell car has easier fueling,
lighter vehicle weight, a lower cost of battery replacement, and a
longer travel range.

Yeah all of 240 miles MAX. per fill-up.

Post by PolicySpy
There are a couple of things to know about the fuel-cell car. The
first is that there are a limited number of hydrogen fueling stations.
I see them, among other places, in southern California, in NYC, and in
Orlando. The second thing to know is that the fuel-cell car has a 5000
psi tank for the compressed hydrogen. And so the hydrogen tank has to
be very strong and is probably made out of carbon fiber with an outer
protective steel shell.

According to http://www.hondaclarity.org/fuelingstations.html
There are a total of 8 places that are able to fuel the car.
5 in S Cal., 1 in Phoenix, 1 in Chicago and one in Maryland.
Guess you may want to stay close to home!

Post by PolicySpy
But the strength of the hydrogen tank leads to a structural idea. Use
two hydrogen tanks, one in the front and one in the back. Then have
the tanks as lateral stressed members of the vehicle frame to produce
vehicle strength without added weight.

Not a good idea to have a high pressure gas storage cylinder doubling as
a stressed member of the vehicle.

really? the bulk tank trailer industry has been using the pressure
vessel as a stressed member for decades. perhaps they didn't get the memo?

Post by Steve W.

Post by PolicySpy
Of course physicists are working on balls of carbon that store
hydrogen without it being compressed so the day might come when very
strong hydrogen tanks are not needed.
Now I included this post to a civil engineering newsgroup because
civil engineers sometimes work in aircraft structure positions and
certainly can work with bridge structures.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by PolicySpy
Now the fuel-cell car fuels with hydrogen, takes oxygen out of the
air, produces electricity, runs an electric motor, and sends water out
the tailpipe. And the advantage of the fuel-cell vehicle over the plug-
in electric-vehicle is that the fuel-cell car has easier fueling,
lighter vehicle weight, a lower cost of battery replacement, and a
longer travel range.

Right. The issues are all to do with storage and transport of hydrogen,
not with the fuel cell itself. What we really need is a fuel cell that
can operate over the long term with a liquid fuel that can be readily
transported. Folks are working on that. I don't expect it soon, but it
might happen.

Post by PolicySpy
Of course physicists are working on balls of carbon that store
hydrogen without it being compressed so the day might come when very
strong hydrogen tanks are not needed.
Now I included this post to a civil engineering newsgroup because
civil engineers sometimes work in aircraft structure positions and
certainly can work with bridge structures.

Well, the good thing about hydrogen is that if it leaks and ignites,
you get a huge plume going straight up and most of the actual combustion
takes place in the air some distance up. So in that regard a fuel explosion
is actually safer than a comparable gasoline explosion from the point of
view of the people in and around the car, because the hydrogen is lighter
than air even when cold.

Now... the bad news is that if that happens under a highway overpass, the
damage may turn out to be a good bit worse than with a gasoline explosion.
That's going to be an interesting thing to try and model.
--scott

[PolicySpy]

Post by PolicySpy
There is a fuel-cell car currently being leased to consumers in
southern California. It's the Honda Clarity but also MB was said to
have a fuel-cell car for the U.S. market in 2010.
Now the fuel-cell car fuels with hydrogen, takes oxygen out of the
air, produces electricity, runs an electric motor, and sends water out
the tailpipe. And the advantage of the fuel-cell vehicle over the plug-
in electric-vehicle is that the fuel-cell car has easier fueling,
lighter vehicle weight, a lower cost of battery replacement, and a
longer travel range.
There are a couple of things to know about the fuel-cell car. The
first is that there are a limited number of hydrogen fueling stations.
I see them, among other places, in southern California, in NYC, and in
Orlando. The second thing to know is that the fuel-cell car has a 5000
psi tank for the compressed hydrogen. And so the hydrogen tank has to
be very strong and is probably made out of carbon fiber with an outer
protective steel shell.
But the strength of the hydrogen tank leads to a structural idea. Use
two hydrogen tanks, one in the front and one in the back. Then have
the tanks as lateral stressed members of the vehicle frame to produce
vehicle strength without added weight.
Of course physicists are working on balls of carbon that store
hydrogen without it being compressed so the day might come when very
strong hydrogen tanks are not needed.
Now I included this post to a civil engineering newsgroup because
civil engineers sometimes work in aircraft structure positions and
certainly can work with bridge structures.

The hydrogen tank to store compressed hydrogen is strong enough to
hold 5000 psi. It's probably made out of carbon fiber with a steel
outer shell but the shape of a tank is relatively simple likely
allowing an automated manufacturing process to be used with the carbon
fiber.

But it would be better to have one hydrogen tank that is slender and
long. Then the tank can be a center and longitudinal backbone frame
for the vehicle. In fact the Delorean car has a backbone frame of
traditional construction.